Homestuck.XYZ 2.0

I've seen this proposal all over the forum, all over reddit, and even on a dedicated ratification proposal page on Tumblr, and while I was initially considering the benefits that this would entail, I was also concerned with the benefits of this open source approach. My main gripe with the idea is that Homestuck wouldn't be well known enough to be considered for public use, because as it stands in the eye of the public it remains a niche webcomic that has gone on for far too long.

how does that make it a bad idea? putting Homestuck into the public domain would be for the fans, not anybody else.

If they truly meant what they've said about canon, yes. But they don't so it will never happen.

The Wonderful Wizard of Oz book and its follow-up books are public domain, and that book series has been picked up and expanded upon by many authors over the century since its publication in 1900. The biggest reason that Oz is something you can make adaptations of without having to ask permission or pay royalties/licensing fees is because it's in the public domain, and anyone is allowed to use the imagery and locations from it wholesale, for profit, without concern for legal ramification.

If Homestuck became public domain, then that would literally absolve it of any kind of canon. Anyone could take Homestuck, print their own edited version of it, or make a full-length anime adaptation of it without having to pay royalties or licensing to Andrew Hussie for use of his Intellectual Property. I'm not a lawyer though, so further research is required.

Darth_Energon wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:28 pm

If they truly meant what they've said about canon, yes. But they don't so it will never happen.

Well that statement was always just a hint that homestuck 2 was gonna be a thing at some point.

thorondraco homestuck^2 is literally called "beyond canon" I don't think your interpretation is the only valid one here

It's the only good thing hussie could do at this point.

The most convincing argument I've heard against it has been the fact that larger companies could make Homestuck content and use their size/money to effectively overrule and drown out fan content. Whether or not Homestuck is large or profitable enough for that to realistically happen is another matter and not something I feel like I know enough to comment on.

nonsenseMnemonic wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:06 pm

The most convincing argument I've heard against it has been the fact that larger companies could make Homestuck content and use their size/money to effectively overrule and drown out fan content. Whether or not Homestuck is large or profitable enough for that to realistically happen is another matter and not something I feel like I know enough to comment on.

Yeah, honestly, I feel like basically every company would see Homestuck as too risky, and a Homestuck product as too much of a financial risk. Making Homestuck public domain would only benefit the fans.

JakeMorph wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:05 pm

thorondraco homestuck^2 is literally called "beyond canon" I don't think your interpretation is the only valid one here

Fair but at this moment we have an official sequel out and a lot of what that commentary said coincides with how they are doing with sequel.

Of course Hussie always doublespeaks like a mofo. Though i can't see a rational way to go about the idea short of shoving Homestuck into the public domain. A move he obviously isn't ready to do just yet, what with having more projects. Maybe when Homestuck^2 is done?

course he might be trying to inspire more fanfiction and projects. Maybe in order to find more talent? Bring more potential creators into the fold? Its a possibility.

Currently the concept of fan control is being done very metaphorically. With the team Hussie hired on. The terms 'beyond canon' may be more of an in universe thing too. Cause the reality they knew is currently trapped inside of Calliope's black hole.

That or literally he means that a bunch of fanfic stuff is happening in the white void cause Paradox Space is very unstable in this white void thing?
Suddenly turns out that Vast Error becomes 'canon' and is a new experimental way for a sburb session to go down cause paradox space got sucked into a god damn black hole! Including stuff like officestuck.

The biggest issue is that you could easily have peeps fighting each other over 'what is canon'. Cause you would be in a situation where while you have your Vast Errors in one corner, in the other corner you have fanfictions that directly uses homestuck characters, contradictory to the current story even. You might have guys trying to 'undo homestuck' as it were. Fixfics man, so many of them.

You basically end up ensuring that there is no cohesion to the universe of Homestuck anymore. Its literally absolute chaos and nonsense where world building is meaningless and someone literally just broke up karkat and Dave just so he could incest ship him with Roxie.

Mass Hysteria and cat dog fucking basically.

thorondraco wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:42 pm

The biggest issue is that you could easily have peeps fighting each other over 'what is canon'. Cause you would be in a situation where while you have your Vast Errors in one corner, in the other corner you have fanfictions that directly uses homestuck characters, contradictory to the current story even. You might have guys trying to 'undo homestuck' as it were. Fixfics man, so many of them.

You basically end up ensuring that there is no cohesion to the universe of Homestuck anymore. Its literally absolute chaos and nonsense where world building is meaningless and someone literally just broke up karkat and Dave just so he could incest ship him with Roxie.

Mass Hysteria and cat dog fucking basically.

That's not really how this stuff works, though. Frankenstein and Sherlock Holmes, for example, are both public domain. Yet the public has a clear idea of what their stories are, and would generally be able to agree upon gross mischaracterizations or warpings of the story. The difference is that it is possible for people to make derivative work with these characters and universes without getting sued for it. They can profit off of their creative work.

People already fight over what is canon. People fight over what is canon no matter what the copyright laws are. Homestuck has an established universe and an established set of characters. Public domain would not make that meaningless.
Fan fics are already contradictory to the story. Public domain does not make them more valuable. Public domain merely awards ownership to the people who wrote them.
Also, like.. is it really such a bad thing that someone could write Rose out-of-character and not be immediately shut down for it? It's not the end of the world. People already ship Stridercest, and putting Homestuck in the public domain doesn't suddenly make that more popular or widely accepted than it is now. Public domain doesn't change the origin of the story nor does it make people value the author's content less than they do now.

nonsenseMnemonic wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:49 pm

thorondraco wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:42 pm

The biggest issue is that you could easily have peeps fighting each other over 'what is canon'. Cause you would be in a situation where while you have your Vast Errors in one corner, in the other corner you have fanfictions that directly uses homestuck characters, contradictory to the current story even. You might have guys trying to 'undo homestuck' as it were. Fixfics man, so many of them.

You basically end up ensuring that there is no cohesion to the universe of Homestuck anymore. Its literally absolute chaos and nonsense where world building is meaningless and someone literally just broke up karkat and Dave just so he could incest ship him with Roxie.

Mass Hysteria and cat dog fucking basically.

That's not really how this stuff works, though. Frankenstein and Sherlock Holmes, for example, are both public domain. Yet the public has a clear idea of what their stories are, and would generally be able to agree upon gross mischaracterizations or warpings of the story. The difference is that it is possible for people to make derivative work with these characters and universes without getting sued for it. They can profit off of their creative work.

People already fight over what is canon. People fight over what is canon no matter what the copyright laws are. Homestuck has an established universe and an established set of characters. Public domain would not make that meaningless.
Fan fics are already contradictory to the story. Public domain does not make them more valuable. Public domain merely awards ownership to the people who wrote them.
Also, like.. is it really such a bad thing that someone could write Rose out-of-character and not be immediately shut down for it? It's not the end of the world. People already ship Stridercest, and putting Homestuck in the public domain doesn't suddenly make that more popular or widely accepted than it is now. Public domain doesn't change the origin of the story nor does it make people value the author's content less than they do now.

Peeps argue over how paradox space works but its hussie and his team that actually know how, and or them deciding which headcanons are cooler as it may be. But suddenly you have fans gaining the authority to decide that and the arguments become less discussions and more warfare.

Homestuck's very nature is meta stuff so its hard to imagine how peeps would react to it. I guess i am just presuming a lot of people will try to have a homestuck multiverse thing. It is valid some people could just make separate things totally disconnected from some multiverse thing, like Vast Error. What would be prevalent though?

Nothing is quite as meta as homestuck compared to all those old properties in the public domain. So who knows how peeps would react.

thorondraco wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:27 pm

Peeps argue over how paradox space works but its hussie and his team that actually know how, and or them deciding which headcanons are cooler as it may be. But suddenly you have fans gaining the authority to decide that and the arguments become less discussions and more warfare.

People argue over the Epilogues, Pesterquest, and Homestuck^2. These works already present the question of what is canon, ask us to critique it, demand that we make a conclusion about the meaning and legitimacy of canon. Do you really believe it would be too great a step to go from here to public domain? Would releasing ownership of a work not be the most meaningful way for any author to question canon?

I think the premise of the question is kind of off? Like. I'm not sure hussie even COULD put it in the public domain even if he WANTED TO?

Instead of Homestuck being put into Public Domain, and all of the very bad potential things that could come with that, I think maybe people actually means putting the Homestuck IP under the CREATIVE COMMONS license, instead of copywrite.

This is a much better idea and would allow there to be conditions applied to the use of the IP in order to protect the integrity of it's values as well as add a few safeguards against that 'abuse from companies' problems, too. It could require that gay characters not be portrayed as straight in order to properly use the license, for example, and that other potentially deplorable things not be done. It could require that permission must be granted by the license owner in order for the IP to be used commercially, or for profit, and that permission can be granted at the IP owner's sole discretion, which would officially and legally allow them to give smaller fans the ability to profit off of fan works but bar big companies from effectively stealing the IP from fans. Etc, etc, etc.

nonsenseMnemonic wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:06 pm

The most convincing argument I've heard against it has been the fact that larger companies could make Homestuck content and use their size/money to effectively overrule and drown out fan content. Whether or not Homestuck is large or profitable enough for that to realistically happen is another matter and not something I feel like I know enough to comment on.

The SCP Foundation is creative commons (essentially public domain but with extra steps that make it a bit less stupid) and remains untouched by big companies.
They tried with Slenderman, which is sorta public domain (it's complicated), but failed miserably - the amateur content is still more popular than the officially made movies.

Edit: Someone owns the rights to Slenderman now. Nevermind.

Joyfulldreams wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:13 am

I think the premise of the question is kind of off? Like. I'm not sure hussie even COULD put it in the public domain even if he WANTED TO?

Instead of Homestuck being put into Public Domain, and all of the very bad potential things that could come with that, I think maybe people actually means putting the Homestuck IP under the CREATIVE COMMONS license, instead of copywrite.

This is a much better idea and would allow there to be conditions applied to the use of the IP in order to protect the integrity of it's values as well as add a few safeguards against that 'abuse from companies' problems, too. It could require that gay characters not be portrayed as straight in order to properly use the license, for example, and that other potentially deplorable things not be done. It could require that permission must be granted by the license owner in order for the IP to be used commercially, or for profit, and that permission can be granted at the IP owner's sole discretion, which would officially and legally allow them to give smaller fans the ability to profit off of fan works but bar big companies from effectively stealing the IP from fans. Etc, etc, etc.

I'll have to second Joyfull I am like giddy to have a second creator of a HS Fan Comic I like on the forums btw

I've learned the basics of copyright in school, and this would be perhaps the best option for something like Homestuck. Joyfull explains it really well above.

I'd also like to make it known that as far as I'm aware, there is absolutely support amongst the WP staff for the IP to be brought either into public domain or put under a creative commons license. They are well aware that many people are unsatisfied with the current state of things, and so are they, for the most part. Unfortunately there are approximately a FUCKING BAJILLION complicating factors involved that mean nothing can be done any time soon. Not the least of which is Viz hanging over everyone's heads like a shoe about to drop, where no matter what we do and how legal it might be, they're the mega corporation with all of the money and the lawyers to completely destroy us the moment they feel like it.

We are lucky thus far that they don't feel like it, which ironically is in no small part due to how the epilogue's polarizing effect on the fandom dropped the IP's profitability below anything that Viz would give a shit about. Hell, there may be repercussions not just against WP but against individual fans, if Viz really wants to crack down on shit, and there would be literally nothing they could do. It's understandable they're kind of scared to rock the boat too much too fast.

Honestly it all sounds extremely stressful and awful from what little I've heard. Aaaaaa.

Joyfulldreams wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:49 am

We are lucky thus far that they don't feel like it, which ironically is in no small part due to how the epilogue's polarizing effect on the fandom dropped the IP's profitability below anything that Viz would give a shit about. Hell, there may be repercussions not just against WP but against individual fans, if Viz really wants to crack down on shit, and there would be literally nothing they could do. It's understandable they're kind of scared to rock the boat too much too fast.

Honestly it all sounds extremely stressful and awful from what little I've heard. Aaaaaa.

This really begs the question of why Hussie took his IP and sole distribution or publishing rights to Viz Media if his whole goal was this meta wankery of 'fans make Homestuck/everything is canon' in the first place.

Sahxyel wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:05 am

Joyfulldreams wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:49 am

We are lucky thus far that they don't feel like it, which ironically is in no small part due to how the epilogue's polarizing effect on the fandom dropped the IP's profitability below anything that Viz would give a shit about. Hell, there may be repercussions not just against WP but against individual fans, if Viz really wants to crack down on shit, and there would be literally nothing they could do. It's understandable they're kind of scared to rock the boat too much too fast.

Honestly it all sounds extremely stressful and awful from what little I've heard. Aaaaaa.

This really begs the question of why Hussie took his IP and sole distribution or publishing rights to Viz Media if his whole goal was this meta wankery of 'fans make Homestuck/everything is canon' in the first place.

I couldn't possibly say. desu I'm pretty mystified by some of this too. But I do know that he really wanted the books to be a thing. And he would have...HAD to deal with SOME publisher for that to happen, no matter what. Just like they have to deal with a games publisher for pesterquest in order to even get pesterquest on steam in the first place, because only publishers have the ability to get steam to do stuff, so even though publishers pretty much always fuck them over and don't do dick of what they're supposed to do they...really don't have THAT much of a choice???? And neither hussie nor anybody on the team has any kind of advanced law degree so it's kinda unreasonable to expect they could somehow avoid all of this with perfect foresight. Like some of it, yeah. For sure. But uh. This shit is all complicated and kinda predatory as fuck, so. I can't be too mad?

Like as irritating as Aysha and folks going on on twitter about 'we're just small indie creators trying our best plz dont get mad at us' is, this is kind of what they mean when they say that. When faced with these super fucking unfair circumstances all pretty much designed to completely destroy small, poor, queer little creators like us, it kinda...puts all of our fandom wank into a little bit of perspective. Shit's scary. @.@ We are but fucking ants.

It's honestly really humbling to see all this brought to light. I'm sure the majority of people in this thread hadn't really considered before any considerable amount of interference from publishers muddling the issue, myself included. Ironically, this whole call for Homestuck to be public domain is to get it away from any one established entity in the first place, it's just that that entity was What Pumpkin and the writing team, not Viz media. Discussing if Homestuck even could be made public domain or something similar, we need to think of what Viz could gain from shutting down such an endeavor.
It's likely Hussie forfeited any publishing rights except through Viz when he handed over the publishing job to them, as any company would attempt to keep any other outside publisher from cutting into their profits, had Hussie found a better deal in the future under a different publisher. Under this circumstance, making Homestuck public domain would violate such a circumstance, as it would mean that ANYONE can publish Homestuck, and so Viz would probably write a contingency into the contract to keep this from happening.
This may also explain why the veil of cannon hasn't been tossed aside completely. Let's say Hussie said that everything in Homestuck is just as cannon as any other interpretation. This would mean to Viz that Homestuck proper has been invalidated by it's own author, which means people would be less likely to buy the books, which is something Viz wouldn't want. The question is then, what exactly does such a contingency cover, and for how long?
We already know that Viz is doing a publication of the Epilogues, so it is possible that anything licensed under Homestuck is available to be published under Viz. But, while I'm no lawyer, it may aso be a possibility that they were limited to publishing anything in homestuck.com. That may be part of the explanation as to why Homestuck 2 is under another web address, to distance itself from the original to the degree that it has some legal immunity, as in this circumstance it wouldn't fall under Viz's publishing rights.
Let's go back to the "for how long" part of that. It could only be until the main Homestuck series is completed, or that they have some-odd years to do all the books before the contract expires. In a worst case scenario it could be that they have publishing rights until the copyright wears off, but I doubt that's something Hussie would agree to. Really no stipulations stated in the deal can be said for certain, as this kind of stuff would definitely fall under some kind of non-disclosure agreement between What Pumpkin and Viz, so it's really just a matter of time to see what the authors do in response to all this legal nonsense and when they do it.