Homestuck.XYZ 2.0

don't want to derail the thread about dear sweet precious sweet dear sweet sweet harry anderson so here's a new one.

tell us what you think about the real nitty gritty of quadrants. can humans really experience them? do TROLLS really experience them, or is it a social construct? do carapacians experience pitch feelings? is cherub kismesex the same as troll blackrom? fanwank away I say

The way I've always seen it is that the quadrants are actually just like, words for unnamed human feelings. It's kind of like how "heterosexual" or "homosexual" are to trolls, funnily enough. Well, not entirely, because the quadrants aren't all subsections of human "love" or anything.

The point is, though, is that I think humans can definitely feel <3< feelings (I forget all the words so the symbols will have to suffice), c3< could definitely happen with humans (or any species that faces relationships, so carapaces and cherubs et cetera), <> is... more or less something that definitely happens in real human life. I'd go and collect funny examples of relationships like these from sitcoms, except I don't really watch sitcoms, so I can't.

I don't really know how solid my "theory" is, because it could be that I'm looking at the quadrants wrong (I'm not SUPER into troll romance, like some people are). I don't really trust myself to exactly define the different quadrants' ideal relationships or whatever. I also don't really know if what I'm saying is agreeable or if anybody who's slightly into troll romance will immediately shoot me down for being wrong, so... I don't know a lot of things, I guess. That's just my two cents, though.

Yes, humans can feel the feelings associated with the other quadrants. Relationships that fit the <> criterium, even right down to the pacification factor, exist plenty in real life. However, there are people out there who seek out or describe their relationships in the black quadrants, I feel that's unhealthy. The emotional possibility is there, but it's not mentally healthy, especially when it comes to c3< as mediation can be an incredibly stressful and emotionally hurtful process, speaking as someone who had to do so with two separate friends of mine with massive grudges (but with some mutual respect) towards each other for a month and I was losing my mind.
If you want to describe your relationship with someone as <> or as 'matesprits' (why not just use SO or something...), that's fine. I think it's a bit too silly for me, but your life is yours. But I've met people who want to seek out <3< or describe their relationship with someone else as <3<, eehhh, I don't really approve of that. I think it can encourage some seriously unhealthy shit.

OP wrote:do TROLLS really experience them, or is it a social construct?

They do, although it seems to me that relationships that 'transcend the quadrants' exist (most notably the canonical example SuffererxDisciple though I've seen fans describe Vrisrezi as this too), so being strictly in line with the quadrants is the social construct more than the feelings are.

Radical Dude 42 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:06 am

The way I've always seen it is that the quadrants are actually just like, words for unnamed human feelings. It's kind of like how "heterosexual" or "homosexual" are to trolls, funnily enough. Well, not entirely, because the quadrants aren't all subsections of human "love" or anything.

The point is, though, is that I think humans can definitely feel <3< feelings (I forget all the words so the symbols will have to suffice), c3< could definitely happen with humans (or any species that faces relationships, so carapaces and cherubs et cetera), <> is... more or less something that definitely happens in real human life. I'd go and collect funny examples of relationships like these from sitcoms, except I don't really watch sitcoms, so I can't.

I seconded this. IMHO the four quadrants are just some social construct of trollkind, about how they acknowledge and deal with romantic relationships. They decided to divide them as four kind of romances, while human don't.

And it's quite often of me seeing (both in officials and fanworks) about trolls being confused whether they'd like to have matespritship or kismesissitude with the other. It could means that red and black romance are, actually, not so different. I also think, "quadrant flip" from <3 to <3< and vice versa is sometimes inevitable, for the difference is so thin.

Anyway, I (mostly personally) think this fanfic below might be a quite perfect example of how kismesissitude actually works. A balance between hate, lust, and love. It couldn't be romance if it's just full of hatred (with a series of hate sex), thus kismesises (?) still would care for each other despite of the fights, bickering, etc.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/636536

And I just love DualFang im not sorry

egg wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:43 am

Yes, humans can feel the feelings associated with the other quadrants. Relationships that fit the <> criterium, even right down to the pacification factor, exist plenty in real life. However, there are people out there who seek out or describe their relationships in the black quadrants, I feel that's unhealthy. The emotional possibility is there, but it's not mentally healthy, especially when it comes to c3< as mediation can be an incredibly stressful and emotionally hurtful process, speaking as someone who had to do so with two separate friends of mine with massive grudges (but with some mutual respect) towards each other for a month and I was losing my mind.

I don't think the fact that humans can have similar relationships to the quadrants necessarily means they have the same feelings. moirallegience is shakier but in terms of kismesitude the fact that the pitch and flushed quadrants both seemingly have different forms of genetic material to me would suggest that there are biological processes associated with them in trolls that simply wouldn't be there in humans.

in that vein I don't think auspisticism would ever be remotely applicable to humans because it serves the specific social purpose of preventing pitch infidelity, which would never be a problem for humans in a thousand years.

JakeMorph wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:58 am

]I don't think the fact that humans can have similar relationships to the quadrants necessarily means they have the same feelings. moirallegience is shakier but in terms of kismesitude the fact that the pitch and flushed quadrants both seemingly have different forms of genetic material to me would suggest that there are biological processes associated with them in trolls that simply wouldn't be there in humans.

That's a fair interpretation, I think. Act 6, however, already shows that there already really close approximations in the human psyche (Johnrezi). I think the major difference between trolls and humans in this equation is that trolls probably feel a biological need to seek it out, whereas humans don't. When you hate somebody, you don't want to keep hating them or seek to further these feelings - you cease to associate with the person entirely. Well, that's if you have a healthy mindset, I suppose. In troll culture, I'd speculate that trolls actively cultivate pitch feelings, as opposed to ignoring them altogether. In fact, the mere existence of the ashen quadrant is evidence towards that theory, as it means that pitch cultivation is something that happens a lot. As another example, you have a lot of people in real life who feel actual, emotional pain over the fact that they don't have a romantic partner. No one in real life feels any of that towards the concept of a 'hatepartner' - it has never happened, and probably never will outside of like, one or two particularly sad individuals in the Homestuck fandom. However, the comic itself demonstrates that Eridan, who is a troll, appears to be invested in the concept of finding a <3< partner in several conversations with Karkat and Kanaya.

In any case, I think it's less that I approve of the implication in HS^2 that humans can feel these feelings, as much as I disapprove with the implication that a very real subsection of the Homestuck fandom has that these things are worth seeking out or utilized to describe your life. I realize that may seem a little ironic, considering I like Classpect enough to write several documents on it and that's essentially the same thing, but I feel like fucking with emotions is a lot different and far more prone to instability and hurt feelings.

I don't think HS^2 necessarily implies these are real things humans can feel, though, is the thing. none of homestuck has shown us particularly convincingly that blackrom between humans can work as it's supposed to work on Alternia.

for that matter I don't think homestuck has really shown that blackrom between TROLLS works that well, either. which is what leads me to believe that what is considered kismesitude on Alternia is about 30% biological and about 70% bullshit made up to convince trolls that beating each other up and hating everyone all the time is normal. in much the same way the version of love and marriage that has persisted through much of human history is a little skewed for sociocultural purposes.

JakeMorph wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:10 am

for that matter I don't think homestuck has really shown that blackrom between TROLLS works that well, either. which is what leads me to believe that what is considered kismesitude on Alternia is about 30% biological and about 70% bullshit made up to convince trolls that beating each other up and hating everyone all the time is normal. in much the same way the version of love and marriage that has persisted through much of human history is a little skewed for sociocultural purposes.

I said in my post that I don't care much about that.
Though I will say that if this was the intention, then I think it would've been explicitly said that pitch feelings don't exist on Beforus, which is never done. However, we never see a confirmed pitch crush or relationship amongst the Beforan trolls, possibly owning to just how little of a role they play to the story. I think there's some implication that a percentage of quadrant bullshit is fake, though per your example in your own post that happens in real life too, and that doesn't make love any less real.

fuck intention I'm here for the TEXT

I'm not going to try to pretend I take beforus seriously in my analysis of alternia given that the whole premise is that it's "Alternia without the influence of Lord English" and yet kurloz is RIGHT THERE. that being said I don't think kismesitude being socially constructed on Alternia necessarily means it wouldn't exist at all on Beforus. the biological aspect would still be there, the rest might just be a little different. maybe they have the weaksauce fanon version of kismesitude where they play monopoly against each other then give kisses goodnight

I'm definitely not arguing that kismesitude outright isn't real LOL that's why I'm saying things like "what they call kismesitude on Alternia". like I said, the biological aspect is obviously there, but no functional civilisation is just naturally going to develop a custom where two people who legitimately do not like each other form romantic pairs for life.

The concept of monogamy for things like moirallegiance is baffling to me as a human. Imagine demanding a specific person to ease you out of your panic attack. Imagine being so emotionally constipated that you can only disclose your vulnerabilities to zero to one people. Imagine unintentionally encouraging someone's unhealthy behaviors and delusions because that's the only time you'll pay attention to them.

Fucked. Hahahahahahahaha. Glad that's not a thing that happens to anyone ever. WEW.

JakeMorph wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:18 am

no functional civilisation is just naturally going to develop a custom where two people who legitimately do not like each other form romantic pairs for life.

I like how Gamzee adapted the role of the auspistice so that it'd work for two humans on Earth C. He was the most unethical marriage counselor in the world. They live in a society.

TH4NK YOU B3N wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:41 am

The concept of monogamy for things like moirallegiance is baffling to me as a human. Imagine demanding a specific person to ease you out of your panic attack. Imagine being so emotionally constipated that you can only disclose your vulnerabilities to zero to one people. Imagine unintentionally encouraging someone's unhealthy behaviors and delusions because that's the only time you'll pay attention to them.

Fucked. Hahahahahahahaha. Glad that's not a thing that happens to anyone ever. WEW.

More nations should invest in mental healthcare

I wonder why there's no pale/black vacilitation in Homestuck.

TH4NK YOU B3N wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:05 am

I wonder why there's no pale/black vacilitation in Homestuck.

Pale inherently necessitates having large amounts of respect for the other party, as well as patience due to the pacification factor. It's a pretty stable quadrant, with only three known examples completely falling apart, two of which (Feferi and Eridan, Kanaya and Vriska) involved one of the parties having unrequited feelings for the other in ANOTHER quadrant entirely, and one of which (Gamzee and Karkat) involving one of the parties becoming a murderous superclown hellbent on killing his friends and/or helping his lord.

I liked it better when Trolls were somewhat incompatible with Human values. My headcanon is Rose was into Kanaya for the xeno, and her being a human in grey paint would've been a turn-off in that interpretation.

Dream Muttman wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:59 pm

I liked it better when Trolls were somewhat incompatible with Human values. My headcanon is Rose was into Kanaya for the xeno, and her being a human in grey paint would've been a turn-off in that interpretation.

This shit was doomed to happen the moment Andrew decided it'd be a fun idea to make internet trolls into an actual non-human species, as internet trolling is an inherently human concept - he then associated each troll with an archetype rooted in human culture (Nepeta being an extension of Jade's furriness, being a shipper, roleplaying, etc. amongst others for all the other 11), which made that fate even more unavoidable.

I figured the whole point of the Trolls is that, for all the differences, they were basically just grey humans with horns.

Their romance is the weirdest thing about them, but it's clear they don't know what it's really all about or if they're even in specific quadrants. It's a social construct that just has no purpose. It's superfluous.

trolls being based on humans doylistically doesn't mean they have to just be grey humans in-universe. you're not looking at things dead-authorly enough

My opinion is that quadrants, as presented in canon, are a constructed system of romantic relationships, only loosely based on the actual biological reality of trollkind, that is strictly enforced by the empire.

I think that relationships between humans can line up with the definitions of the quadrants relatively well, and if humans were to be forcefully subjected to troll norms, they could reasonably adopt the quadrant system. Maybe it wouldn't be as natural as it is to trolls, but then again, how natural is it to trolls in the first place?

Since by the time Earth C was created, it was apparent to the trolls that humans could have feelings which trolls would identify as pitch (or pale or ashen?), I believe that Earth C's society would have developed with that as standard knowledge, and it would be relatively common for humans to enter non-flushed relationships with trolls. Maybe even with other humans! (Though that might raise questions of appropriation among some more conservative trolls? Who knows.)

Radical Dude 42 wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 26, 2019 2:06 am

The way I've always seen it is that the quadrants are actually just like, words for unnamed human feelings. It's kind of like how "heterosexual" or "homosexual" are to trolls, funnily enough. Well, not entirely, because the quadrants aren't all subsections of human "love" or anything.

This sums up my thoughts pretty concisely on the subject. I'd just like to add that the reason trolls have names for the four quadrants is just because it's more normal in that society (due to the way that society functions, including relations to their forced breeding or drone death program) to feel that way, so of course it'd be known as common occurrences with names and all that. as far as humans are concerned i'm sure you've met people you hate but still found attractive, the only difference is that it's not socially normal to persue them BECAUSE of how much you dislike them. there are still people who do that, of course, but it's not considered normal so there's no real name or common acceptance of it.

as far as i'm concerned moralliegeance is just super-best friends. of course it's probably more than that in the troll world, considering moirails generally have a 'what can we do for/how can we benefit from eachother' dictum.

I think that a lot of quadrant stuff, especially it's cross-species potential, deals more with love as a learned emotion and romance as a learned behavior. Even in real world human societies, you see radically different approaches to romantic love across cultures. With that in mind, if a human is immersed in troll culture or even just spends a ton of time with trolls, especially when they're young, you can see that cross-cultural pollination of emotions and constructs. I also think this shows of quadrants as something that doesn't really need to be enforced; it's just a how trolls, as a culture, approach love and romance. It could theoretically be "undone" and maybe there's some kind of troll political/social theory like equivalent to "free love" on earth, where people want to change the way their culture approaches romance for social reasons, but I don't think quadrants need to be enforced any more than dating needs to on earth, and it's no more a biological reality than the human custom of marriage is.