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lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:27 pm
by trashyvoid
hey all! i’m
compiling a lore document combining juggalore and real world clown stuff and i thought that this would be a good place to start. it’s also collaborative document so if you’re comfortable with sharing your headcanons, let me know and i can add it!
i know that lord english and doc scratch are the Messiahs and are considered angels (?) which are feared in alternian culture, and that the dark carnival is basically limbo.
i’m also working on this weird theory i guess that clowns should live as viciously and indulgently as they want so that when they go to the dark carnival, they have to earn their passage to shangri-la because it would make it harder to be persuaded into being good but easier to revel in their ‘wickedness’ (this is partially based off the actual juggalo mythology about the dark carnival)
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:58 pm
by rookie1978
all I can really add is that the dark carnival IS canonically real, if friendsim is anything to go by. that and marvus's reality shit means there's some actual weight to their religion despite their religious figures being enemies of most of the 'heroes'. whether the religion's powers are because of those figures or not is unknown though
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:40 am
by thorondraco
rookie1978 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:58 pm
all I can really add is that the dark carnival IS canonically real, if friendsim is anything to go by. that and marvus's reality shit means there's some actual weight to their religion despite their religious figures being enemies of most of the 'heroes'. whether the religion's powers are because of those figures or not is unknown though
Unless the religious figures of their religion ISN'T actually lord english. Just that the narrative, or lord english deliberately, wrote over their true gods.
Two things of note is that the realm in question exists in the Furthest Ring, as a dream bubble. Though it is totally barren of peeps, perhaps because non of its believers ever made it there, because they were mislead?
And thing about the religion is its heavy clown aspect, but initially speaking the religion in its first form had nothing to do with clones, but skulls and skeletons. Kurloz outfit was that of a skeleton, not a clown at all. In fact the only thing with any relation to clowns about Lord english is Gamzee's half, and that half alone.
so what if there WAS a clown religion on Beforus and doc scratch corrupted it with English's presence and symbolism? Or more accurrately harlequins?
Basically i wonder if its secretly implied that Harlquin like beings created the troll's universe.
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:11 am
by egg
thorondraco wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:40 am
Unless the religious figures of their religion ISN'T actually lord english. Just that the narrative, or lord english deliberately, wrote over their true gods.
This isn't possible because Kurloz, who hails from a planet without Lord English's influence, still worships him.
also if u think abt it clowns r the most oppressed caste dont @ me
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:51 pm
by thorondraco
egg wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:11 am
thorondraco wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:40 am
Unless the religious figures of their religion ISN'T actually lord english. Just that the narrative, or lord english deliberately, wrote over their true gods.
This isn't possible because Kurloz, who hails from a planet without Lord English's influence, still worships him.
also if u think abt it clowns r the most oppressed caste dont @ me
because their true religion and their connection to the 'true gods' are obfuscated!!!
kurloz has a strange nightmare on beforus and immediately sows his mouth shut and brainwashes his girlfriend psychically. presumably is responsible for mituna's brain damage too. he may be behind other misfortunes that befall them too.... in a sense he was the precusor to Lord english's influence.
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:19 am
by trashyvoid
thorondraco wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:51 pm
egg wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:11 am
thorondraco wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:40 am
Unless the religious figures of their religion ISN'T actually lord english. Just that the narrative, or lord english deliberately, wrote over their true gods.
This isn't possible because Kurloz, who hails from a planet without Lord English's influence, still worships him.
also if u think abt it clowns r the most oppressed caste dont @ me
because their true religion and their connection to the 'true gods' are obfuscated!!!
kurloz has a strange nightmare on beforus and immediately sows his mouth shut and brainwashes his girlfriend psychically. presumably is responsible for mituna's brain damage too. he may be behind other misfortunes that befall them too.... in a sense he was the precusor to Lord english's influence.
werent subjugs said to have been rulers of the land where as seadwellers were rulers of all? i dont think they're oppressed, especially considering how high up in the hemospectrum they are + their social power they have
also! i do have a headcanon that kurloz was the one that caused cronus' faith crisis
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:21 am
by trashyvoid
rookie1978 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:58 pm
all I can really add is that the dark carnival IS canonically real, if friendsim is anything to go by. that and marvus's reality shit means there's some actual weight to their religion despite their religious figures being enemies of most of the 'heroes'. whether the religion's powers are because of those figures or not is unknown though
yeah, i know the dark carnival is canon. is there more clown stuff in marvus's route? i'll have to check it out then, but for now im trying to go off of real juggalore and actual clown hierarchy (as said by my friend going to clown school)
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:30 am
by thorondraco
trashyvoid wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:19 am
thorondraco wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:51 pm
egg wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:11 am
This isn't possible because Kurloz, who hails from a planet without Lord English's influence, still worships him.
also if u think abt it clowns r the most oppressed caste dont @ me
because their true religion and their connection to the 'true gods' are obfuscated!!!
kurloz has a strange nightmare on beforus and immediately sows his mouth shut and brainwashes his girlfriend psychically. presumably is responsible for mituna's brain damage too. he may be behind other misfortunes that befall them too.... in a sense he was the precusor to Lord english's influence.
werent subjugs said to have been rulers of the land where as seadwellers were rulers of all? i dont think they're oppressed, especially considering how high up in the hemospectrum they are + their social power they have
also! i do have a headcanon that kurloz was the one that caused cronus' faith crisis
It is in part joke but at the same time a lot of stuff seems to exist to contain and manipulate the purplebloods. Mainly a purpleblood is expected to be a subjug, expected to be religious and do all those rituals, drink shittons of faygo, In fact the only purplebloods that seem to really deviate from this are the Soleil twins, who have largely been isolated from the culture. Karako himself crudely imitates that culture with a lot of offbrand sodas.
All of the hemospectrum is controlled via expectations nad punishments for not meeting them. The purplebloods in fact have a system that puts more restriction in what they do.
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:32 pm
by egg
trashyvoid wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:19 am
werent subjugs said to have been rulers of the land where as seadwellers were rulers of all?
Where does it say this?
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:10 pm
by trashyvoid
egg wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:32 pm
trashyvoid wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:19 am
werent subjugs said to have been rulers of the land where as seadwellers were rulers of all?
Where does it say this?
i remember reading that the grand highblood kept the lower castes in check- who are all land dwellers- and i may have misinterpreted that, my bad! but yeah theyre basically like, the overseers of the land who do their own stuff but have to take orders from the empress because she can just decimate them at will
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:12 pm
by trashyvoid
thorondraco wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:30 am
It is in part joke but at the same time a lot of stuff seems to exist to contain and manipulate the purplebloods. Mainly a purpleblood is expected to be a subjug, expected to be religious and do all those rituals, drink shittons of faygo, In fact the only purplebloods that seem to really deviate from this are the Soleil twins, who have largely been isolated from the culture. Karako himself crudely imitates that culture with a lot of offbrand sodas.
All of the hemospectrum is controlled via expectations nad punishments for not meeting them. The purplebloods in fact have a system that puts more restriction in what they do.
i wouldnt say oppression is the word for it, but you're right on about the restrictions! i always figured that if you were a purple but not a subjug you'd catch a lot of shit for it
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:58 pm
by JakeMorph
the subjugglators are the leaders of
a self-governing body who are considered separate from
the Condesce and her sea dwellers and (
obligated to be at odds with them), but at least sometimes ally with them in order to defeat threats to the empire like the Signless' uprising. the Condesce uses the threat of psychic annihilation by Gl'bgbolyb's powers to pressure the subjugglators into doing what she wants them to do, which puts them in a unique position, for sure, but not necessarily one of oppression: they're oppressed from above, but also have the responsibilities of an enforcer class to keep all the castes below them in line (whereas the sea dwellers might seem like they have very few responsibilities at all, as a class of royalty).
this doesn't mean the subjugglators don't deal out their own fair share of subjugation either, with porrim talking on the topic of a patriarchy enforced from the purple caste downards, and the insane clown party on earth C being allowed by the Condesce to do basically whatever they wanted outside of following her orders. the fact that the Grand Highblood was able to get away with ordering Dualscar's execution suggests that the Condesce doesn't mind at least a little mutual conflict between the two ruling races. Dirk suggests the Condesce
just loved the idea of delegating the extreme subjugation of the world's population to a pair of demented clown rappers.
other facts: the subjugglators
foretell the coming of a band of rowdy and capricious minstrels on a paradise planet that does not exist yet, which would seem to be earth (the phrase 'paradise planet' is used repeatedly to refer to it throughout the Epilogues). it's likely they believe the dark carnival is located on this planet, if the fact that
Washington D.C. became the "Washington Dark Carnival" under ICP's jurisdiction is anything to go by. depending on how smart you think the highbloods are, this paradise planet may or may not be supposed to show up after
the Vast Honk that the subjugglators prophecise will come after so many people die, which would be consistent with the end times + world to come narrative found in a lot of human religion.
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:49 pm
by rookie1978
trashyvoid wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:21 am
rookie1978 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:58 pm
all I can really add is that the dark carnival IS canonically real, if friendsim is anything to go by. that and marvus's reality shit means there's some actual weight to their religion despite their religious figures being enemies of most of the 'heroes'. whether the religion's powers are because of those figures or not is unknown though
is there more clown stuff in marvus's route?
'Marvus takes the player to Clown Church'
'Worried sick and overwhelmed with gratitude, the player helps Marvus into the establishment and debates a few key details concerning reality and existence. The player tries to relax for a few moments but is gripped with fear when paradox space warps reality.'
from his bad end specifically, yeah. I assumed the reason Marvus had so much canonocity/paradox space knowledge had something to do with his religion and his standing as a popular clown. I'm pretty sure he deliberately refers to the clown church as a sort of safe space.
Which is kinda funny since MSPA reader still dies there in chahut's route.
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:38 pm
by thorondraco
rookie1978 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:49 pm
trashyvoid wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:21 am
rookie1978 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:58 pm
all I can really add is that the dark carnival IS canonically real, if friendsim is anything to go by. that and marvus's reality shit means there's some actual weight to their religion despite their religious figures being enemies of most of the 'heroes'. whether the religion's powers are because of those figures or not is unknown though
is there more clown stuff in marvus's route?
'Marvus takes the player to Clown Church'
'Worried sick and overwhelmed with gratitude, the player helps Marvus into the establishment and debates a few key details concerning reality and existence. The player tries to relax for a few moments but is gripped with fear when paradox space warps reality.'
from his bad end specifically, yeah. I assumed the reason Marvus had so much canonocity/paradox space knowledge had something to do with his religion and his standing as a popular clown. I'm pretty sure he deliberately refers to the clown church as a sort of safe space.
Which is kinda funny since MSPA reader still dies there in chahut's route.
His awareness stretches unto the abilities of sburb players that have either unlocked their powers or gone full god tier. I think it has less to do with the religion at all and more to do with him be a fellow Conspirator of this whole Hiveswap thing. Just look at his picture in the Hiveswap act 2 promo, peaking at Joey and xefros.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/msp ... 1031182139 . Unless he is for some reason checking out the gremlin couple he is looking at Joey and xefros there. The only one paying them any mind. A look that for some reasons says in my mind "Going to plan, motherfuckers. Goin to plan."
I don't trust that charismatic fucker as far as i could throw Vriska' fatass mom.
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:02 pm
by trashyvoid
JakeMorph wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:58 pm
the subjugglators are the leaders of
a self-governing body who are considered separate from
the Condesce and her sea dwellers and (
obligated to be at odds with them), but at least sometimes ally with them in order to defeat threats to the empire like the Signless' uprising. the Condesce uses the threat of psychic annihilation by Gl'bgbolyb's powers to pressure the subjugglators into doing what she wants them to do, which puts them in a unique position, for sure, but not necessarily one of oppression: they're oppressed from above, but also have the responsibilities of an enforcer class to keep all the castes below them in line (whereas the sea dwellers might seem like they have very few responsibilities at all, as a class of royalty).
this doesn't mean the subjugglators don't deal out their own fair share of subjugation either, with porrim talking on the topic of a patriarchy enforced from the purple caste downards, and the insane clown party on earth C being allowed by the Condesce to do basically whatever they wanted outside of following her orders. the fact that the Grand Highblood was able to get away with ordering Dualscar's execution suggests that the Condesce doesn't mind at least a little mutual conflict between the two ruling races. Dirk suggests the Condesce
just loved the idea of delegating the extreme subjugation of the world's population to a pair of demented clown rappers.
other facts: the subjugglators
foretell the coming of a band of rowdy and capricious minstrels on a paradise planet that does not exist yet, which would seem to be earth (the phrase 'paradise planet' is used repeatedly to refer to it throughout the Epilogues). it's likely they believe the dark carnival is located on this planet, if the fact that
Washington D.C. became the "Washington Dark Carnival" under ICP's jurisdiction is anything to go by. depending on how smart you think the highbloods are, this paradise planet may or may not be supposed to show up after
the Vast Honk that the subjugglators prophecise will come after so many people die, which would be consistent with the end times + world to come narrative found in a lot of human religion.
i completely forgot about the vast honk!
i'll also probably have to add an OOC bit on the clown lore doc about the paradise planet, since if we're going with mostly blind faith the clowns most likely dont know the exact location of the dark carnival.
looks like judgement day is going on the clore doc now, thanks
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:01 am
by trashyvoid
Updated the clown lore document! Again, would really appreciate input / corrections about what I've written! :¬}
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:27 am
by VASKA
I notice you have pies listed as a clown thing, but as far as I know it's uniquely Gamzee who eats sopor pie. Every other troll considers the habit disgusting and probably life-threateningly unhealthy.
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:50 am
by trashyvoid
VASKA wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:27 am
I notice you have pies listed as a clown thing, but as far as I know it's uniquely Gamzee who eats sopor pie. Every other troll considers the habit disgusting and probably life-threateningly unhealthy.
gotcha! thanks for the catch
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:35 am
by JakeMorph
i dont think the other trolls making fun of gamzee for his pie eating necessarily says that's not part of his religion, given that they also make fun of him for every other part of his religion. worth noting that unhealthy narcotic habits are part of the juggalo culture both in the friendsims and also in real life.
pie is also associated with clowns in problem sleuth.
on the other hand i'm not sure the horrorterrors would be considered associates of the messiahs given that lord english has made it his mission to kill them. their aquatic nature would probably have them more associated with sea dwellers
Re: lets talk about clowns/subjugs
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:05 am
by egg
JakeMorph wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:35 am
on the other hand i'm not sure the horrorterrors would be considered associates of the messiahs given that lord english has made it his mission to kill them. their aquatic nature would probably have them more associated with sea dwellers
In all fairness, Doc Scratch did use one to keep Alternia under control. It's a bit weird.
