Sudden headcanon, What if the Ghost army subplot, was in reality Lord English's 'post canon?'

[thorondraco]

Basically on first viewing, and up until the reveals of a few aspect of homestuck last year, the subplot of the furthest ring and the ghost army and dream bubbles look like an integral part of homestuck. Like, its them trying to stop the big bad right?

Though even back then i noticed that the main characters have extremely minimal influence on that subplot at all. Like yea they interact and meet with the characters and trolls involved in it. But they rarely, if never, directly contribute to the treasure finding. The sole influence is, honestly, Dave making the map that Vriska finds.

And then you have to think about the timeloop itself and what is needed to accomplish it. If we strip away the story beats a bit, what is the primary things needed for the timeloop to exist?
It needs the trolls unvierse to be made by whomever is made it. It needs the first session to fail entirely, the second session to mostly succeed and certain trolls killed. it needs to communicate with the human session, and then have the survivors travel to earth c. The human session is exceptionally important as it is the basis for creating universe C and also the session leads to the generation of the Green sun. And then the two players remaining in universe need to travel to the Alpha session after the scratch to deliver the still functioning session pieces.

The Alpha human session needs to then create universe C, plant Earth c into it so it becomes the 'nest' of the cherub child. Calliope needs to die, Caliborn needs to succeed and become immortal. Then the 8 humans need to attack caliborn, 4 become sealed, and 4 overpowering him and throwing his soul into lil cal, throwing it into the void. And thus he reappears back in the troll universe, presumably first manifesting his influence in the Alpha session, completing the loop.


-Edit to simplify it past this point -

Basically in the aradia pesterquest she said that the furthest ring and dream bubbles are outside of the awareness of 'powers that be'. Whatever is in charge of paradox space and its mechanics. But we can see stuff that is happening there so long as its shown on screen for us. And i presume the pesterquest stuff is being used to flesh out things in universe. It even has reference to HS^2 as well, and the epilogue.

So that means that all of the furthest ring adventures were not seen by the powers that be, though was seen by us. And the fact that non of the timeloop save for fighting lord english, which isn't necessary FOR the timeloop at all if you think about it, has no connection to the Ghost army arc and neither does it truly intersect with the main story until AFTER retcon happens. And only after, that is the point where Aranea causes game over.

Meaning that the entire time we were bamboomzled and deceived into thinking that the story was going forward normally when the reality is it had these Furthest ring add-ons the entire time. Visible to us, not visible to the being that govern paradox space..

HOW that even works is beyond me. But it seems to be the case regardless. We can see the furthest ring adventures, we could see the pesterquest episode taking place in a dream bubble. But whomever is behind pesterquest cannot even as it was written and coded..

Maybe its like the situation with Doc Scratch. Old scratch is blinded by the void during certain parts of the story. Maybe the furthest ring does that to anyone who isn't bound to the void?

[Generalrabogolfo]

man, you sure are skilled at the art of saying something without saying anything casue i have reread multiple times what you are trying to imply or where are you trying to go with this line of thought and the only thing i made clear is that you are basically recaping the main loop and thinking a bit about dreambubbles.
please, explain yourself in a more noncovoluted manner.

[thorondraco]

man, you sure are skilled at the art of saying something without saying anything casue i have reread multiple times what you are trying to imply or where are you trying to go with this line of thought and the only thing i made clear is that you are basically recaping the main loop and thinking a bit about dreambubbles.
please, explain yourself in a more noncovoluted manner.

Homestuck is convoluted in its own right.

What i mean is that all of the dream bubble and ghost army, beating lord english shit was kinda forced into the story by some unknown force, probably the horror terrors, with the plan to unleash retcon powers.

Basically when in pesterquest, it was mentioned that whomever is in charge of paradox space can't really see what is going on in the furthest ring and the dream bubbles it re-contextualizes everything. Cause it means that while we are reading and watching all of these shenanigans go down, the shit that runs paradox space had no idea it was happening.
Fuck maybe we could compare it to how Doc scratch, while omniscient, had darkspots in his awareness. Basically if the metaphorical and or literal beings that run paradox space read homestuck, they would only see blank panels whenever a dream bubble is involved with no text at all.

So basically it would mean something/someone was showing us what happens after lord enligh's loop ends and he basically 'won'. With the intent of the hwole Retcon stuff happening.

That also means retcon was never part of the plan cause it happened from a place that the peeps behind paradox space, cannot see.

[Generalrabogolfo]

So basically it would mean something/someone was showing us what happens after lord enligh's loop ends and he basically 'won'. With the intent of the hwole Retcon stuff happening.

That also means retcon was never part of the plan cause it happened from a place that the peeps behind paradox space, cannot see.

are you contradicting yourself in this statement or is it just my ESL ass not getting the subtle meanings of the shakesperian language?

[thorondraco]

So basically it would mean something/someone was showing us what happens after lord enligh's loop ends and he basically 'won'. With the intent of the hwole Retcon stuff happening.

That also means retcon was never part of the plan cause it happened from a place that the peeps behind paradox space, cannot see.

are you contradicting yourself in this statement or is it just my ESL ass not getting the subtle meanings of the shakesperian language?

Basically retcon was not 'paradox space's' plan, not the original intent and direction for the story, at least in universe. Some other force let us see all that was going on there and such showings ultimately lead to Retcon.

GOD this concept is abstract XD

Basiclaly imagine two factions. We got the forces that govern paradox space and we got whomever was behind attaching the furthest ring story to homestuck as a whole. By Aradia's statement, the paradox space faction had no idea that was even happening. It is a blindspot to them. so it allowed the furthest ring faction to add onto the story in a secretive manner through the dream bubbles and the void. And it ultimately lead to John gaining retcon powers which seemingly broken paradox space.
Or he just damaged it.

Either way it implies that we may have completely misread what was going on in paradox space.

also i emphasized the last part because there is debate of whether or not the Retcon stuff really was the story being changed or if it was just the story all along, along with all the stuff happening in the furthest ring. But if the beings that can control reality ARE blind to the furthest ring it means they have no influence there at all.
But of course SOMEONE or something was showing us what was oging on there, who had the ability to perceive it and then convey it to readers...

Yea its very abstract but if this whole 'guys like hussie, dirk, and other narrative power people can't see dream bubble and void shit' is true, it means that there were shenanigans going on from the moment dream bubbles were introduced.

[Generalrabogolfo]

how can it not be paradox space plan if it was so vital for the session to end? have in mind, skaias main and only goal is to create another universe, and the only way to do so is by sticking to the alpha timeline. GO was a doomed timeline, and the retcon was teh necessary solution to the story for the players to prevent it from happening, sort of like dave(sprite)'s jump in time to prevent john from dying. it was necessary because teh alpha timeline NEEDED davesprite to exists. and the alpha timeline NEEDS john's retcon powers for LE to get defeated and for Caliborn to be faced.
its all part of the plan.
so maybe, that one entity you are so obsessed with its just skaia being a bitch all along.

[thorondraco]

how can it not be paradox space plan if it was so vital for the session to end? have in mind, skaias main and only goal is to create another universe, and the only way to do so is by sticking to the alpha timeline. GO was a doomed timeline, and the retcon was teh necessary solution to the story for the players to prevent it from happening, sort of like dave(sprite)'s jump in time to prevent john from dying. it was necessary because teh alpha timeline NEEDED davesprite to exists. and the alpha timeline NEEDS john's retcon powers for LE to get defeated and for Caliborn to be faced.
its all part of the plan.
so maybe, that one entity you are so obsessed with its just skaia being a bitch all along.

If it was a doomed timeline then it would simply have faded into the void. That is how doomed timlines work. Effectively an invasive force form the void disrupts the session and as it breaks the loop, it is deemed noncanon and fades. There was no reason at all to reset it if it was just a doomed timeline.
Maybe it ultimately was a doomed timeline or maybe it was more than that, reality about to fall apart.

All gameover did, if it was a true doomed timeline, is basically act as a launching point for Retcon to happen.

Seriously that is kind of a big thing to overlook. You don't have to fix a doomed timeline. That is the point of dooming a timeline, to prevent it from interfering with the alpha. Something else was going on here.
also literally all the ways the Mspa and Homestuck.com sites did, adding the hands and oil spots, the passwords, were all to convey that the Retcon were Altering things.

Basically i am saying that there was obviously a version of events before retcon that were overwritten and ther eare plenty of logical ways the timeline could be completed without it. The empress was already positioning the kids to complete their goals for the session.
We don't know how the session would have ended pre retcon, that version doesn't even exist anymore in universe. Its possible they were enslaved by the Empress, its possible it went down much like we say. Or maybe there were twists, like the Empress becoming an uneasy ally against Lord Noir.

FUCK DUDE so much of these prohicies about beating lord english is all a bunch of semantic bullshit and always was. Jake beats caliborn, who is technically lord english. And its clear that Lord Noir is the lord english that Dave was meant to kill, not the main one. A scapegoat to accomplish the prophecy on a technicality. There are so many signs that these things were supposed to happen without retcon, but didn't because of retcon.

Even going after caliborn is absolutely doable within the range of abilities that they have without retcon. I mean, Dave. Exists. He has time traveling powers.

Essentially yes Homstuck needed retcon powers to be completed, but only after a reality altering event CAUSED by those same powers and with considerable consequences to reality.
And Now we learn that the entirety of the events that lead to the retcon being unleashed was completely unknown to those who reign over paradox space. Which further feeds into the theory that 'hey retcon changed the course of the story.

And to draw from the Epilogues, if someone with narrative powers cannot comprehend an event or person, it cannot narrate and thus control those events and people. Dirk can't control Roxy because his mind is shrouded by his void powers.

[Generalrabogolfo]

There was no reason at all to reset it if it was just a doomed timeline.

except there was? i think you are understanding doomed timelines wrong. when dave went back in time to prevent john from dying, it showed us what a reset would look like, and what john does is not that far from what he does there. they are going back in time to prevent it from happening, they are actively reseting the timeline. there was a reason for the reset to happen, and it was that it was needed because this doomed timelines are important. they serve a purpose and a role within skaia's plan. without davesprite, dave would have died when he talked to rose on the dungeon; wihout him, LE wouldnt have been defeated; without the retcon, the new universe would not be created; without it, LE's mere confrontation wouldnt have been even possible. it was needed from the start.

also literally all the ways the Mspa and Homestuck.com sites did, adding the hands and oil spots, the passwords, were all to convey that the Retcon were Altering things.

it can also convey that things were always going to be that way, (this, maybe, its a little biased of me, because when i read it, all those hands and oils were already there, giving the feeling that it was skaia's plan from the begining, so dont pay much attention to this point.), that skaia's plan was allways going to be the retcon, which fits in how skaia works and operates.

Basically i am saying that there was obviously a version of events before retcon that were overwritten and ther eare plenty of logical ways the timeline could be completed without it. The empress was already positioning the kids to complete their goals for the session.

they were not overwriten. overwritten implies that it doesnt exists anymore, but that is not the case. terezi's ghost exists, dave's and jade's ghosts also exists. go is a doomed timeline that needed a retcon instead of a normal loop to happen, thats all.

[thorondraco]

There was no reason at all to reset it if it was just a doomed timeline.

except there was? i think you are understanding doomed timelines wrong. when dave went back in time to prevent john from dying, it showed us what a reset would look like, and what john does is not that far from what he does there. they are going back in time to prevent it from happening, they are actively reseting the timeline. there was a reason for the reset to happen, and it was that it was needed because this doomed timelines are important. they serve a purpose and a role within skaia's plan. without davesprite, dave would have died when he talked to rose on the dungeon; wihout him, LE wouldnt have been defeated; without the retcon, the new universe would not be created; without it, LE's mere confrontation wouldnt have been even possible. it was needed from the start.

also literally all the ways the Mspa and Homestuck.com sites did, adding the hands and oil spots, the passwords, were all to convey that the Retcon were Altering things.

it can also convey that things were always going to be that way, (this, maybe, its a little biased of me, because when i read it, all those hands and oils were already there, giving the feeling that it was skaia's plan from the begining, so dont pay much attention to this point.), that skaia's plan was allways going to be the retcon, which fits in how skaia works and operates.

Basically i am saying that there was obviously a version of events before retcon that were overwritten and ther eare plenty of logical ways the timeline could be completed without it. The empress was already positioning the kids to complete their goals for the session.

they were not overwriten. overwritten implies that it doesnt exists anymore, but that is not the case. terezi's ghost exists, dave's and jade's ghosts also exists. go is a doomed timeline that needed a retcon instead of a normal loop to happen, thats all.

There was actually some weird thing you could do with the mspa website that would remove the oil and hands. That is because When retcon first happened, Hussie edited specific pages in order to to add the hands, then the oil when that incident happened. Homesuck.com might have it too.
Essentially it was done to emphasis the power that fell into John's hands. Honestly I asked someone about it before and they told me that i could remove the hands. It clicked what happened.

And yes some doomed timelines exist for the sake of the Alpha. Its why the three pillars are a good explanation. Davesprites timeline lacked the essential Truth element but had both relevance and essentially. However if a doomed timelines has none of the three they have no purpose.
At the same time however, this is not even close ot the same even by that logic. It would be more like doomed timeline somehow overtook the Alpha.

[Generalrabogolfo]

At the same time however, this is not even close ot the same even by that logic. It would be more like doomed timeline somehow overtook the Alpha.

how so? how does it differs? it has essentially, and it's relevant too.

[thorondraco]

At the same time however, this is not even close ot the same even by that logic. It would be more like doomed timeline somehow overtook the Alpha.

how so? how does it differs? it has essentially, and it's relevant too.

We had the doomed timeline influence the alpha and the doomed individuals replacing the Alpha counterparts by that logic. Which is the total inverse of how it works.

Doomed timelines are a concept to prevent alterations to the alpha timeline. All in the doomed timelines are disposable... Nay not even that. Disposable means they can be expended, they are meant to cease to exist.

So yea it be one thing if retcon john and roxie ceased to exist for the alpha timeline, but not they jacked their alpha counterparts basically.

[Generalrabogolfo]

We had the doomed timeline influence the alpha and the doomed individuals replacing the Alpha counterparts by that logic. Which is the total inverse of how it works.

Doomed timelines are a concept to prevent alterations to the alpha timeline. All in the doomed timelines are disposable... Nay not even that. Disposable means they can be expended, they are meant to cease to exist.

So yea it be one thing if retcon john and roxie ceased to exist for the alpha timeline, but not they jacked their alpha counterparts basically.

but the doomed timelines always influences the alpha dude. to not jerk the dave timeline again, think about the timeline where vriska fought bec. it also influenced the alpha and shaped terezi's decission. doomed timelines are not only meant to exist, but they are necessary for the continuation and preservation of the alpha timeline.

the only thing i can agree with you is john and roxy staying alive, but then again, the retcon breaks all previously stated laws about timetravel so i take it as just a simple perk.

[thorondraco]

We had the doomed timeline influence the alpha and the doomed individuals replacing the Alpha counterparts by that logic. Which is the total inverse of how it works.

Doomed timelines are a concept to prevent alterations to the alpha timeline. All in the doomed timelines are disposable... Nay not even that. Disposable means they can be expended, they are meant to cease to exist.

So yea it be one thing if retcon john and roxie ceased to exist for the alpha timeline, but not they jacked their alpha counterparts basically.

but the doomed timelines always influences the alpha dude. to not jerk the dave timeline again, think about the timeline where vriska fought bec. it also influenced the alpha and shaped terezi's decission. doomed timelines are not only meant to exist, but they are necessary for the continuation and preservation of the alpha timeline.

the only thing i can agree with you is john and roxy staying alive, but then again, the retcon breaks all previously stated laws about timetravel so i take it as just a simple perk.

THAT timeline influenced her, not the timeline she god tiered, or anyone BUT vriska up to that point god tiered. And its essentially levels were quite low as only the information did.

And seriously its not even comparable cause reality was not altered, it was part of the story.

And don't forget, THAT ceased to happen when John interrupted it.

[Bahinchut]

that would be very underwhelming narratively

[luigi]

So basically it would mean something/someone was showing us what happens after lord enligh's loop ends and he basically 'won'. With the intent of the hwole Retcon stuff happening.

That also means retcon was never part of the plan cause it happened from a place that the peeps behind paradox space, cannot see.

are you contradicting yourself in this statement or is it just my ESL ass not getting the subtle meanings of the shakesperian language?

What's your first language I'm curious