wwe out

[Dream Muttman]

Part of the backlash is that these are the last of the Alternian trolls. Chances are we're not going back to Alternia after this. People might have been performing the proprietary Homestuck maneuver of pushing expectations further ahead on the serial timeline and only realizing they're not getting what they expected by the end. It's just how brains work, I think.

Expectations are good, though. Don't misinterpret what I'm saying as the equivalent of other people calling you 'entitled' or whatever. What's the point of praising things that don't live up to expectations? I haven't read anything unrealistic in this thread. It really does make sense that Eridan and Feferi should have been used to expound on seadwellers, for example.

I expect a 'but Hiveswap' response to this, to which I say 'it's not the same Alternia impacting the same characters'.

[thorondraco]

Part of the backlash is that these are the last of the Alternian trolls. Chances are we're not going back to Alternia after this. People might have been performing the proprietary Homestuck maneuver of pushing expectations further ahead on the serial timeline and only realizing they're not getting what they expected by the end. It's just how brains work, I think.

Expectations are good, though. Don't misinterpret what I'm saying as the equivalent of other people calling you 'entitled' or whatever. What's the point of praising things that don't live up to expectations? I haven't read anything unrealistic in this thread. It really does make sense that Eridan and Feferi should have been used to expound on seadwellers, for example.

I expect a 'but Hiveswap' response to this, to which I say 'it's not the same Alternia impacting the same characters'.

Well obviously that isn't the case. The set up here is that the Reader, as a character, will without question return to Alternia in time. We don't know what is gonna send him after the alpha kids but Alternia is immensely important to him. For the friend he believes lost an the new ones made, he wants Alternia to be better.

There is also the issue of him literally fucking up the entirety of reality and likely Paradox space needs to respond to this. And then the reader has to respond to the response.

though if you mean we won't explore much more of alternia, yea that's fair. But i imagine very, very little has changed on alternia.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Maybe it's less that they think twitter is their main audience and more that they're trying to make different things for different groups? I mean, the game starts out with the MSPA reader being too peanut-brained to appreciate the epilogues, so I'm not going to have the same enjoyment because I have good taste. They can't handle the idea of having a complex relationship with gender and sexuality, so they have to ease people into the idea with quirky troll antics.

So I guess it doesn't appeal to me because I'm too pretentious and brainsmart, but that's putting a lot of faith in the writing team that I'm not sure is deserved.

[thorondraco]

Maybe it's less that they think twitter is their main audience and more that they're trying to make different things for different groups? I mean, the game starts out with the MSPA reader being too peanut-brained to appreciate the epilogues, so I'm not going to have the same enjoyment because I have good taste. They can't handle the idea of having a complex relationship with gender and sexuality, so they have to ease people into the idea with quirky troll antics.

So I guess it doesn't appeal to me because I'm too pretentious and brainsmart, but that's putting a lot of faith in the writing team that I'm not sure is deserved.

He wasn't being peanut brained at all. His whole issue was that the story had ended without anything being resolved. Weirdly enough, not long after the pesterquest started, HS^2 would be revealed.
I have a weird memory when it comes to this stuff. But i feel a lot of people keep on mentally framing things in a worse light, to the point of them not remembering a scene correctly. You remember it implying that the reader was too stupid to appreciate the epilogues. He implies he understands the conventions but his actual issue is that it resolved nothing. He wanted some god damn catharsis.

Outside of all the claims of ooc behavior and such the biggest issue collectively is that it didn't end and it lacked catharsis. So they pointed to the most common and most reasonable criticism of the epilogues. If they really wanted to they could have had the Reader ranting about how out of character everyone was and shit. Which would have fit a peabrained outlook more effectively.

[Robot_Face]

i don't think it really matters what eridan is and isn't aware of, harassing ANYBODY about what their dick looks like just makes his whole Really Woke About Gender Completely Unironically thing look really fucking dumb. it's like the writer was kind of just looking at the entry for 'woke about gender' in a dictionary and then closed the book once those 2 paragraphs about gender were over.

don't get me wrong, i think getting on someone's case about dick rumours is totally in character for actual eridan. it's just not a good look for an eridan that's supposed to secretly have a master's degree in sex sciences.

Honestly its called real world. You can have someone really woke about something, ESPECIALLY something they personally identify with, but hypocritically attack someone else regarding that same thing.
That is the thing. ERidan is woke with something he identifies with but denies is a thing with most people. It kinda goes into his whole Prince aspect. He wants to be a girl but can't bring himself to come out with it, or at lesat wants to damit he doesn't identify as either gender. He wants magic to be real but rejects it as fake despite enjoying it. Anything that has anything to do with the Hope aspect he rejects. With rejecting reality as it is and trying to change it in some way.

I agree with this. It's entirely in-character for Eridan to genuinely buy into something but only so far as it directly benefits himself. I think what a lot of people are missing is that he wasn't made hyper woke about gender, he was made aware enough of "woke" rhetoric to pick and choose, constructing a worldview in which he could somewhat reduce the pain of being closeted but not have to experience the pain of coming out. And using Hope in the most self-destructive way possible means he can escape the cognitive dissonance when he doesn't allow others to benefit from the same measures he's adopted to accept himself.

[thorondraco]

i don't think it really matters what eridan is and isn't aware of, harassing ANYBODY about what their dick looks like just makes his whole Really Woke About Gender Completely Unironically thing look really fucking dumb. it's like the writer was kind of just looking at the entry for 'woke about gender' in a dictionary and then closed the book once those 2 paragraphs about gender were over.

don't get me wrong, i think getting on someone's case about dick rumours is totally in character for actual eridan. it's just not a good look for an eridan that's supposed to secretly have a master's degree in sex sciences.

Honestly its called real world. You can have someone really woke about something, ESPECIALLY something they personally identify with, but hypocritically attack someone else regarding that same thing.
That is the thing. ERidan is woke with something he identifies with but denies is a thing with most people. It kinda goes into his whole Prince aspect. He wants to be a girl but can't bring himself to come out with it, or at lesat wants to damit he doesn't identify as either gender. He wants magic to be real but rejects it as fake despite enjoying it. Anything that has anything to do with the Hope aspect he rejects. With rejecting reality as it is and trying to change it in some way.

I agree with this. It's entirely in-character for Eridan to genuinely buy into something but only so far as it directly benefits himself. I think what a lot of people are missing is that he wasn't made hyper woke about gender, he was made aware enough of "woke" rhetoric to pick and choose, constructing a worldview in which he could somewhat reduce the pain of being closeted but not have to experience the pain of coming out. And using Hope in the most self-destructive way possible means he can escape the cognitive dissonance when he doesn't allow others to benefit from the same measures he's adopted to accept himself.

Exactly!

I do think that people generally expect that once someone realizes that is deemed unusual by common society is in fact just another form of 'normal' they are expected to apply that to things more generally. But it seems a lot of people fixate on the 'abnormalities' they connect to. This eridan case is a rather extreme version of that but it is common. Sometimes people just don't get along or get hung up on weird mindsets. Didn't realize there were subdivisions in both gay and trans communities that hate each other. Like, why the fuck be people emulating the bigot behavior that bigots use? They are bigots!

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

No, I'm not calling anybody in particular peanut-brained. I meant the thing about the "twitter crowd." People who say they want to see minority writers write about their experiences, but then react with revulsion when these narratives, surprise surprise, have a less than squeaky tone. You really have to dumb it down to the basics. Is it effective? Maybe not. I commend the effort, but it kind of feels like selling out.

Eridan has to be woke for the purpose of the PSA because the whole game is trying to hammer down on the idea that edgy writing isn't a hate crime. Even the ones that aren't directly about gender are about gender. If Eridan said the wrong thing about gender, it would muddy the Message and upset the wrong kind of people.

I think there was this one forum user that complained about Terezi's route not revealing anything about her, which is an understandable complaint, but that's because we misunderstood the purpose. Terezi is a homophobe. MSPA reader splains to her "we're all gay and/or trans why are you acting like this" and then Terezi is shocked as if she never considered this before.

If Pesterquest were honest from the start, it'd probably not reach anybody who'd actually need it, even if it bores and disappoints anyone who was looking forward to more FriendSim. I honestly don't think it's going to actually change anyone's opinion, but it makes for good PR.

Anyway, here's a SBAHJ page.
http://www.mspaintadventures.com/sweetb ... id=019.jpg

[VASKA]

I think a lot of people are taking Eridan's gender rant at too much of face value. Eridan is out here actually virtue signalling imo. I think the reader also mentions this to be the case and Eridan immediately flying into a classist tirade is just a comedic way of driving home how insincere and unintegrated Eridan's approach to gender is, where he basically just copy-pastes the parts that are convenient to him while actively encouraging other forms of classist oppression. For what it's worth, I also didn't read anything in the route as "Eridan is trans", just "Eridan likes to wear dresses and paint his nails".

Even as a huge Eridan fan, I especially like how his "human decencyometer" was handled. It didn't rush him into a redemption arc like it did for Vriska, it act like his behavior was "bad, but forgiveable" like it did for Equius, it just showcased that Eridan *could* be a better person, but he is not ready to cross that milestone yet. I found the good ending touching and sincere.

[calamityCons]

I think a lot of people are taking Eridan's gender rant at too much of face value. Eridan is out here actually virtue signalling imo. I think the reader also mentions this to be the case and Eridan immediately flying into a classist tirade is just a comedic way of driving home how insincere and unintegrated Eridan's approach to gender is, where he basically just copy-pastes the parts that are convenient to him while actively encouraging other forms of classist oppression. For what it's worth, I also didn't read anything in the route as "Eridan is trans", just "Eridan likes to wear dresses and paint his nails".

Even as a huge Eridan fan, I especially like how his "human decencyometer" was handled. It didn't rush him into a redemption arc like it did for Vriska, it act like his behavior was "bad, but forgiveable" like it did for Equius, it just showcased that Eridan *could* be a better person, but he is not ready to cross that milestone yet. I found the good ending touching and sincere.

Yes! Yes! A thousand times, YES! Even if Eridan wants to explore gender and demonstrate his Wokeness, that's STILL part of his persona that he plays toward others. He is on the right path toward redemption and self improvement, but he didn't just suddenly Stop Being Himself. He'll become a better VERSION of himself some day, and I'm super happy about that.

[JakeMorph]

I think a lot of people are taking Eridan's gender rant at too much of face value. Eridan is out here actually virtue signalling imo. I think the reader also mentions this to be the case and Eridan immediately flying into a classist tirade is just a comedic way of driving home how insincere and unintegrated Eridan's approach to gender is, where he basically just copy-pastes the parts that are convenient to him while actively encouraging other forms of classist oppression.

the reader does the complete OPPOSITE of this:

There's something in Eridan's voice that makes it clear he's spent a lot of time thinking about this stuff.
Something about the way he's recounting it all that makes you think he didn't learn this sort of stuff to impress people or "appear woke", as the kids say.
Or for any reason besides the subject factoring into his personal development in some way.
Maybe...maybe he isn't so bad.

the last line is immediately followed up with Eridan's anywways let's talk about the hemospectrum, implying that his "good" gender opinions are being CONTRASTED with his "bad" class opinions, rather than compared.

as much as i would love for the "eridan is doing this to look like a good boy" angle to be true and again, think it would be consistent with eridan's character, the above stuff combined with the fact that we've got pq team members posting things like "the eridan route is the first thing that ever made me actually like eridan" and "happy 'you like eridan now' day" really just does not make me feel confident that we're supposed to interpret it as anything but Eridan Is A Good Boy Now.

[ThePungeonMaster]

Shit, I keep flip-flopping about whether or not it was good. There's a lot to like but there's also a lot that ruins it for me. The dialogue was super funny, but also didn't take itself seriously when it needed to. The gender rant was super well put and makes some sense coming out of someone like Eridan, but goes against what we know about both Eridan and Alternian cultural norms. The complexity of Eridan's character was done some justice, but not enough where I can seriously commend the writer for nailing him perfect. Really it's just a summary of my experience with Pesterquest in general, condensed into one route.

[egg]

It really annoys me that now you're apparently supposed to like Eridan because he's woke about gender. Shit, if that's all it took to be a likable person then some people here would be Homestuck twitter's collective waifu. This is part of why I like Vast Error more - when it introduces an asshole character who we are supposed to like at some point (Tazsia, and very likely Calder in the future), it actually gives them justifiable motivations for what they do and make us feel bad for them and their situation, without altering the character's personality retroactively to be somehow better than what it was before.
This doesn't happen here. Instead, Eridan's likable traits are meant to be traits the audience is supposed to relate to, which I think is bullshit (and that I've already elaborated on my novella-length rant above)

[calamityCons]

All I really have to say after all this and thinking on it for a couple days is that Eridan’s pesterquest route suffers the same afflictions as every single other route that has been released. The pacing is on lightning speed, the character’s voice is not quite right, the majority of the plot is fluff and fanservice, and MSPA Reader improves his situation in life by being like Luigi: Everyone Wins By Doing Nothing.

I went in expecting Eridan to get his major character flaws ignored, swept under the rug, and then magically cured like in Vriska’s route. I also thought a likely situation would be seeing Eridan in a different, fluffier and more meaningless context where we sort of just exist in the same room as him while accomplishing jack shit, like Kanaya’s or John’s or Gamzee’s route. I had gone in also HOPING for a route more like Jade’s or Tavros’, where the main crux of their character arc is shown, addressed, and set on the path to being resolved in a believable way.

I believe Eridan’s route is similar to Jade’s and Tavros’ because we address his severe loneliness, haughty attitude, selective adoption of social conventions for his own benefit, and his histrionics and emotional theatrics. They were not written to the same degree as I would have expected, and I can grant that his Dress Talk was definitely a good place for the route to slow down and become a moment of “Eridan thank you for trusting me w this thing that you take personally and I would love to play dressup with you” that would make a lot of sense and be a more domestic but perhaps acceptable path to go on. Instead Eridan spontaneously decides to sexually harass Sollux and receive mixed signals from him in turn (sollux wants to “riile hiim up” but seems to constantly push eridan away in person, which is super confusing. Does Sollux <3< Eridan or not?) and then kinda just. Mopes for a bit before getting a reality check with MSPAR, who stood around in the same place as he did for a long time there.

His route is every problem with Pesterquest smashed into one. I enjoyed it a lot, because I had PesterQuest Expectations. His route is nothing new for this shitty visual novel, it’s just more so.

[Kidpen]

I honestly enjoyed it a lot! I'm very late here, so a lot of what I'm saying has probably already been said.

It really did make me like Eridan a lot more, because I felt like in HS basically every time he showed up on screen it was basically just to emphasize his flaws. This didn't erase his flaws, but it did put his flaws in a new light that made me appreciate him a lot more.

I liked the mild dig at people who think his gender wokeness was wokeness for the sake of wokeness, because honestly I think it was a good way to show how he isn't an asshole in every way possible, only the ways that it suits him.

Also him liking dresses is valid. He doesn't have to be trans/closeted, and honestly given the fact that he explicitly says he isn't wondering about his gender I'm inclined to think he probably isn't. He just likes dresses, and that's OK!
Edit: Also maybe he is though, idk for sure.

Him getting exited about his hate date with Sollux was cute, and a big part of why I enjoyed it honestly.

Yeah, that's it. I'm sure I missed a lot of stuff.

[JakeMorph]

Also him liking dresses is valid. He doesn't have to be trans/closeted, and honestly given the fact that he explicitly says he isn't wondering about his gender I'm inclined to think he probably isn't. He just likes dresses, and that's OK!

i don't want to say your interpretation is WRONG, but i think the use of the stock phrase "its not like im x or anything" and his incredibly fishy expression as he says so is supposed to indicate that he's not exactly being sincere when he says that:

I liked the discussion about Eridan's gender until JakeMorph started talking about "bad precedence," playing exactly into the hands of the writers. A lot of people who claim about "forced diversity" seem to think bad writing is caused by the presence of minority characters, and I don't buy into that, and that was pretty much what Eridan was talking about.
I guess I'm just smarter than other people? I guess I'm immune to propaganda, because I'm not getting trolled?
I am very big on distinguishing myself from people who dislike the same things from me for different reasons.

i only just saw this because you decided to edit it into your post kind of late so may i ask, what the hell are you talking about??

"bad writing" and "forced diversity" arent anything close to what i was talking about. im talking about 2-3 of the 3 explicitly trans or gender non-conforming characters in the visual novels being either sexually aggressive or straight-up predators?? if you're joking you're not doing a very good job of showing it: no, you are not smarter than everybody else for thinking that is good trans representation

[Kidpen]

Also him liking dresses is valid. He doesn't have to be trans/closeted, and honestly given the fact that he explicitly says he isn't wondering about his gender I'm inclined to think he probably isn't. He just likes dresses, and that's OK!

i don't want to say your interpretation is WRONG, but i think the use of the stock phrase "its not like im x or anything" and his incredibly fishy expression as he says so is supposed to indicate that he's not exactly being sincere when he says that:

Yeah ok that's fair. I was definitely being a bit too against the idea of him legitimately being trans. He very well might be! Or nb or whatever really I'm not going to list all the things. I just dislike it when people automatically assume any character who talks about gender or sexuality in a serious way automatically has to be queer in some way, and I think that made me take a position too far away from it. I dislike that in real life too, for that matter. Although to be fair I don't think we've really gotten anybody who does that in HS so far, so it's not exactly invalid.

So I'm just gonna go with he might be and might not be. Realistically he probably is, but mostly because I very much doubt wp (/whoever) would raise the question without making the answer is, not because of the game itself really.