The Vast Error Thread

[burnt2ashleys]

I said there were gonna be three posts, so here's the second.
-
Let's talk narrative. Rather than picking out minute details and incongruences, I'll pick out the things that intrigue me the most and go down from there. So, I pose the question: Why trolls? A simple question, for sure, but let's elaborate. As far as I've ascertained, there has been no unique characteristic of the Homestuck trolls that has been needed for Vast Error. The design could have been swapped out, the race's name changed, and I'm almost sure that this wouldn't have impacted the story and its themes or message. Alternian trolls' most discerning characteristics are the designs (which are easily recognizable thanks to Andrew's artistic skills), and its society, which yields unique dynamics between characters, the former which isn't needed here (hence the question), and the latter is null given the setting is built from the ground up (more on that in a bit). Other characteristics, like quadrants, dynamics between castes and psionics are also reworked, so why still take from Homestuck when there is more benefit to be found in originality (both in the story as well as its art)?
The second point I'd like to address is the setting: 50000 people? Really? That's less than most population centers on Earth! That's not enough inhabitants to do anything! Really, I don't think advanced civilization is possible with only 50000 citizens. Human civilization has never dipped that low, for crying out loud! How many of these trolls are working class? Or is everything automatized? Is there a limit to the growth of the repitonian population? On page 1021, a character says "there are approximately 36,000 or so trolls, right in front of our building", and that's ("approximately") 72% ("or so") of the planet's total population! Around a single building, in a single city! Assuming that city's about the size of Philadelphia, this one city's population density is about 245 people per mile (and if it was the size of New York, the density drops in half), and that ain't much at all (example: Cambridge has about 100.000 inhabitants and its density is 17.000). What of the society itself, then, described as a "feudal anarchy" in the wiki and containing "depressed capitalistic aliens" by the author in this very thread? How does the one corporation function? Would a monopoly be concerned about the livelihood of its consumers? How does such a society work with such a small population and with a capitalist mode of production? Many such questions (that may or may not be answered in the future, I'll be content in merely pointing these out).
The third point, is, of course, regarding the cast itself (amongst other related things). In Homestuck, you're not told how the relationship between the kids start, but you're shown the dynamics between them, and they function well enough that you care for them, even though you don't really know much about them. This is not the case for Vast Error. The relationship between the first 2 characters introduced, Arcjec and Tazsia, is only hinted at in the (arguably unnecessary) repitonian quadrant section of the story, and we still have relationships which have simply not been shown thus far, but that we are told exist. Because of this, we enter "Eight Deadly Words" territory ("I don't care what happens to these people"), the dynamics between the characters aren't interesting enough to make a lasting impression (not only on me, but on others I've talked to about VE). Adding to that show/tell conundrum, some logs are simply too long compared to how much substance is present in them, serving as "fluff" more than constructive dialog that pushes the story forward (and I'd like to make clear that there's nothing wrong with that, different strokes for different folks, but in this case I do feel it does less good than harm).
Lastly, the narrative seems to be more concerned about appearing clever than actually providing a good story, what with in-depth exploration of a few aspects of the setting and the allusion to events and plans which we, the readers, are not privy to. As to why that is, you're guess is as good as mine.
-
Just for clarification's sake and to remind anyone who might be reading this in a close future after I've posted this, I will follow up with a third post to elaborate on some other points.

[ANCIENT_HOLIDAY]

-

[bigchalupa]

However, this cleanliness also comes off as a softening of the style, a "regression", so to say, into Homestuck, instead of "jumping off from it", like the previous style had potential to do. Heck, the style as it stands looks straight out of Act 6 with extra steps, which isn't a problem in and of itself, but I believe that a fanventure should attempt to diverge from its source material, or at the very least, maintain in parallel, not converge to it. Furthermore, with someone as experienced and as skilled as Xamag on team, there is a myriad of avenues that one may take art-wise to better reflect the themes of the story, merging Homestuck's own style with something else (and as to what, your guess is as good as mine) to create something original, something that lacks in the comic as it currently stands.

buddy, pal, my friend, this....... really comes off as very on the fence. and also is kind of confusing? vast error looks too much like homestuck, fan adventures should either look different or look like homestuck?????? i dont really think that the style of vast error matters too much in the long run - the whole thing with it is that its supposed to make you think its going to be like homestuck alternia at first but then as you read on you realize its not, that's a big part of early VE. sure, in the future they could drift off into another style but, take it from me and other adventures out there: style shifts tend to be jarring and can alienate a lot of your audience if you do it with little to no reasoning beforehand. its why the gif of the styles changing in the more recent VE updates are so out of place and unnerving, the art shifts do that! its cool and visually interesting imo and i really like it a lot, xam does a great job with the art in those updates

but regardless i dont want to really fuss up this thread with stuff that comes off as aggressive bcuz im too tired to care, i really like the VE art and the way the comics progressed art wise. no offense to austin or heather of course but sometimes the art in early VE could be a little weird (though obviously they made it when they were way younger then so its not like. damnable) and xam coming in and kind of streamlining the art and process has probably taken a load off of their backs and also has given the comic a really nice and refreshing look to it.

also if you want different art styles for VE just check out SBB theres tons of styles i know bcuz i work on it

[Deageon]

Isn't this a veritable whos-who huh

uhhhhh, what's this supposed to mean, buddy? this thread's wonderful, we've got praise /and/ criticism for a fanventure/comic/whatever!
it's all good, riiiiiiight? or is there an issue?

[Barraskewda]

Isn't this a veritable whos-who huh

I don't really know what you're implying here. Is it based on some of the criticisms listed or what? Can you explain what you meant, please?

[Sahxyel]

I remember starting to read this and losing interest sometime after Arcjec entered the game, it was just boring after a while and nothing was really gripping me to keep reading. I keep hearing things about VE from other people in my Discord but I'm still not too interested to try picking it back up again. This really isn't new because the same happened to me in Homestuck in 2011 when a friend tried making me read Homestuck for the first time and I didn't even finish A1 before going off and doing other more interesting things so idk maybe it gets better and I'll be able to root myself in after the really slow boring start? I'd rather wait until it's finished to determine that myself than try penetrating VE a second (third?) time.

If I had one gripe aside being bored and dropping it the first time: I really hate the blatantly furry designs of the lusus and Breath-Dragon thing like what the heck, what the absolute heck I can't get over this it's so distracting and ill-fitting.

[austinado]

I really hate the blatantly furry designs of the lusus and Breath-Dragon thing like what the heck, what the absolute heck I can't get over this it's so distracting and ill-fitting.

I don't really care about the rest of the post because it's just subjective disinterest and that's all well and good. But I think that just having a disdain up to you saying you HATE the designs of the animals and denizens simply because they're "furry" is a pretty lackluster argument for it being distracting and "ill-fitting".

This is basically like saying that you would greatly prefer animals in real life to become simplified because you felt wronged looking at Garfield once. Or that you want Smaug from The Hobbit to be removed because he's CGI and doesn't fit with the actors. It feels derogatory to any artists who put pen to tablet and decided to do something a little different, like it's somehow an insult to the rest of the comics art that there is a "furry" on the team doing things. Do you not want lusii to look like animals? Do you not want the denizens to be different than worms with slightly different heads?

You can dislike the designs all you want but saying an artists work is an eyesore just because you personally feel uncomfortable with there being anything more than some white and gray shapes that vaguely resemble an animal isn't a good reason to do so.

[Sahxyel]

I really hate the blatantly furry designs of the lusus and Breath-Dragon thing like what the heck, what the absolute heck I can't get over this it's so distracting and ill-fitting.

I don't really care about the rest of the post because it's just subjective disinterest and that's all well and good. But I think that just having a disdain up to you saying you HATE the designs of the animals and denizens simply because they're "furry" is a pretty lackluster argument for it being distracting and "ill-fitting".

The thing about the furry animal designs is about as subjective as my feeling that the comic is boring but okay I'll bite here. This comic is clearly trying to be like Homestuck visually and copies its visual style pretty closely up until the animals and it bothered me reading through. I think it's very valid to say I hate it because I do, it's like visual whiplash and throws me off with the expectation going in, especially when I really like Hussie's own aesthetic in how he portrays the lusus and animals.





They aren't blobs, they have forms defined in a minimalist manner that I find visually pleasant. I can see that you disagree with that and it's okay, sorry to bother you with my two cents. I shall refund them and place them squarely back in the porkhollow to spend elsewhere.

[Zerio]

Hello, I am an internet coolkid because I arbitrarily hate anything along the lines of "furry," please subscribe to my 2009 YouTube channel

[austinado]

This comic is clearly trying to be like Homestuck visually and copies its visual style pretty closely up until the animals and it bothered me reading through. I think it's very valid to say I hate it because I do, it's like visual whiplash and throws me off with the expectation going in, especially when I really like Hussie's own aesthetic in how he portrays the lusus and animals.

This is an assessment that's just wrong when speaking about VE's art in general. It IS MSPA-esque, but 'esque' is the key modifier here. We are NOT trying to ape Andrew's style in any major capacity. Not from early Homestuck and not even from Act 6 Homestuck. There are elements that are taken from MSPA so that it works within the same artistic framing devices but regardless of whether it is Heather doing animal or denizen designs or Xam doing character designs and scenery, it's not the same.

The casts eyes are all different shapes and tend to be outlined, the color palette is much more grim and far less saturated, lines are clean, real world assets and sprites are used far less often, frame by frame animation is used far MORE often, body shapes are slightly more defined, lighting is far more dramatic, etc etc etc. I could go on with a bunch of little details but these are all core differences between the two stories. EVERYTHING in VE (at least as of current) is objectively more detailed compared to the majority of HS, so more detailed animals should probably be a given. Plus we can't forget that Homestuck went this route a few times on its own merits! Remember Bec Noir from Cascade? Yeah I bet you do.

All of these are things used to differentiate VE from HS in style and give it its own visual identity, while still keeping certain aspects of it consistent to the existing formula. Sure, we've proven that we COULD just completely reuse all of the same tricks that he did to make VE a completely husstacular romp through the golden era of 'fast and loose' and update every single day with 5-25 pages but I don't want to do that, and I don't think anybody on our team does either.

It's SUPPOSED to throw off your expectation, because VE is not Homestuck, and it's not supposed to be exactly like Homestuck in any capacity despite what it intentionally shares. The art direction having changes like this is a signal for it.

[Barraskewda]

I feel like the furry topic is just going to be us talking in circles with no real way of getting back on track but I'll be darned if it isnt luring me like a dang ol succubus-siren dragging me along like a stupid sailor.

I think there are veritable points to both sides being made here. On one hand yes the denizen and lusus art is definitely something that could be INVOLVED, not IS, as a entry barrier but I don't really think it should ever really be treated as such.

Yeah furries are a funny group to laugh at lookit em they do the silly thing but if you really get down to it theres nothing that they really do outside of a few specific cases(more than a few specific cases but thats everywhere).

Which also leads me to the real point. It's not homestuck. I mean you can tell the staff is trying their hardest to MAKE it homestuck in some areas but it just won't be. And us trying to compare it and hold it to the same design standards homestuck doesn't really seem fair nor productive. There were (at least, I personally feel) better critiques made in this thread. On the tier list of importance I think the furry issue is like, negative 20 on the scale.

also sovas lusus is cute and I WILL kiss and marry that lusus and live a happy fulfilling life.

[Deageon]

Hello, I am an internet coolkid because I arbitrarily hate anything along the lines of "furry," please subscribe to my 2009 YouTube channel

That's not really the point I feel they were making when bringing up their dislike of the designs, which could be seen as a little bit...neopets-y. you seem to immediately jump on them for having that opinion, and don't pretend they're hating on furries for cool points. we're all weird degenerates these days.

[ANCIENT_HOLIDAY]

-

[egg]

I'd rather not see this thread get locked for sharing the same issue with the June Egbert thread.

[Barraskewda]

I'd rather not see this thread get locked for sharing the same issue with the June Egbert thread.

Then really just ignore the people who aren't providing to the discussion and just mention what you like/dislike about the comic. Personally I think Vast Error has a really big "tell not show" problem. The characters keep telling us about all of these important things about eachother and the world they live in which takes up a lot of word count space, when it could be easily as effective if they just showed us what was going on instead.

[Daz]

The art is pretty but I couldn't get myself to care about the characters and they have even more obnoxious quirks than the original 12 trolls so I mostly just skimmed through it without reading much.

[egg]

I'd rather not see this thread get locked for sharing the same issue with the June Egbert thread.

Then really just ignore the people who aren't providing to the discussion and just mention what you like/dislike about the comic. Personally I think Vast Error has a really big "tell not show" problem. The characters keep telling us about all of these important things about eachother and the world they live in which takes up a lot of word count space, when it could be easily as effective if they just showed us what was going on instead.

I actually haven't read Vast Error. I was lurking around this thread because I wanted to know what people like about it, so I can see if it's worth checking out for myself or not.

[Leddy]

The art is pretty but I couldn't get myself to care about the characters and they have even more obnoxious quirks than the original 12 trolls so I mostly just skimmed through it without reading much.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/deta ... inafldlbka

You can use this to remove their quirks automatically to make reading easier on you. It was made in case anyone had this specific problem. If that's what you mean by quirks and don't mean like their characters or stuff.

[bathtimebird]

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/deta ... inafldlbka

You can use this to remove their quirks automatically to make reading easier on you. It was made in case anyone had this specific problem. If that's what you mean by quirks and don't mean like their characters or stuff.

I don't know how I feel about having to use external tools to make a story more legible. Usually you should only have to do this when translating old sumerian epics from worn, cracked cuneiform tablets.

[Leddy]

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/deta ... inafldlbka

You can use this to remove their quirks automatically to make reading easier on you. It was made in case anyone had this specific problem. If that's what you mean by quirks and don't mean like their characters or stuff.

I don't know how I feel about having to use external tools to make a story more legible. Usually you should only have to do this when translating old sumerian epics from worn, cracked cuneiform tablets.

I mean, I never personally had a probem with the quirks and reading them. Some people need it for accesability, some need it for ease of reading, I didn't need to use it but I presented the person who did with a solution.